Talk:Tipperary Hill

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Untitled

To whomever I am suposed to be addressing this note:

My name is David W. Bishop (aka Papa Bishop). I live on Tipperary Hill a few blocks from the Tipperary Hill light and wrote the article in question. I have also posted it here twice, only to have it removed again. I hereby grant permission to Wikipedia, and anyone else for that matter, to use the article. I only ask that I be given credit for having written it. If there are any questions I can be reached at PapaBishop@aol.com or by phone. (I'm in the Syracuse phone book.)

Signed, David W. Bishop (PapaBishop)

Wikipedia articles must be under the GNU FDL, meaning they cannot be copyrighted by the author. Wikipedia articles do not contain author credits (other than that anyone who looks in the article history can see what user contributed various edits). Wikipedia articles are open to revisions (minor or major) by other Wikipedia users. If you do not agree to this, Wikipedia is not the place for your articles. -- Infrogmation 16:44 May 10, 2003 (UTC)

I sent a copy of this comment and the URL of this talk page to the above email address. -- Infrogmation 16:54 May 10, 2003 (UTC)

Asking to be given credit is entirely compatible with the GFDL, and we do this in Wikipedia by using the article history and (optionally) comments like the above on the talk page. Martin

Should not a distinction be made in this article between the Irish, as in the Irish immigrants who settled in the area, and "the Irish", as in the Irish-Americans who vandalised the traffic lights (seeing as "Sons of Ireland" is a phrase used by the Irish-Americans to describe themselves) Jimregan 21:49 May 11, 2003 (UTC)

If you can state definitively (and give a source) that it was either Irish immigrants or Americans of Irish descent who vandalized the lights, then yes, a distinction should be made. -- Plutor 14:02, 21 July 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Clarify list of areas

The box at the bottom of the page should have a heading of some sort. It is not clear what the box contains. I suggest it here as I am not an expert on this topic.

Question

Has the light ever caused problems with color-blind people? Just wondering. Smartyshoe 20:10, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As a former tipperary hill resident who is color blind, I suppose it depends on the type of color blindness but I experienced no significant confusion when at the light. CCoville (talk) 16:19, 8 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Horizontal traffic light

Couldn't a horizontal traffic light (with red on the left, amber in the middle, and green on the right) have been installed instead? It would have looked a bit funny (as does this inverted signal), but it would have conformed with MUTCD standards yet probably not upset the Irish. 76.21.8.213 (talk) 03:46, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps, but this probably isn't the correct forum to discuss it. --Bossi (talk • gallery • contrib) 04:22, 10 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV Issue & Blatent Racism.

I am reposting an earlier issue I raised after reading this article regarding it's quality and lack of neutrality. It was removed (first time I have ever seen a talk page 'reverted' before) by User:TheOldJacobite with a tasteless note of 'take your ignorant rant elsewhere', followed by an ironically polite note on my talk page.

Firstly, I want to point out that given the immediacy of his actions it's quite clear that he's guarding the article avidly, as his edit history conveys a vested interest. Secondly, the simple fact someone would suppress a talk page entry addressing a bias or agenda and most woefully blatent racism is bigoted and disgusting. I am now asking that this be dealt with as a NPOV matter, and will request arbitration if neutrality cannot be reached by common sense and consensus removing all racism and bigotry and keeping this article at least encyclopedic in nature.

Below is my prior comment:

Since when do we aggrandize and point of view push blatent racism and pathologically insane behaviour? I have no British or Irish in me, so I've got no dog in the race, but I sure as hell am ashamed to read this section of the article (which just got a lot of exposure on reddit) to be ashamed of our encyclopedia for allowing such a heavy slant on the article pushing what is clearly a bunch of ignorant hicks bullying city officials to cause the inverting of an internationally recognized symbol just because they're racist and clearly incapable of comprehension. D:<

Honestly, how did this not get brought up sooner? How did it even pass a first proof? It's disgusting, and if it were perpetrated by any other ethnicity or nationality to any other by and by it would have been removed as vandalism. It's 2012, 'boys will be boys' and inbred racist hicks will be inbred racist hicks doesn't wash anymore. These brazen acts of vandalism and harassment of city officials to deface a traffic control device to push a political and racial agenda is exactly that, not a hurr durr it's lol because they're poms and my aunties uncles cousin rented a flat with an Irishman so I'm on their side by default.

C'mon guys, use your heads. 60.225.69.174 (talk) 16:47, 8 November 2012 (UTC)

Rather than immediately requesting a third party intervention to avoid further removal of discussion of this matter (the talk page is for discussing an article, not deleting other users posts / discussions to protect a racist agenda) I will consider this an attempt to open discourse and commit some time and effort into working through this first.

As I have previously mentioned, I have no dog in this race, but I sure as fuck have low tolerance for racism and bigotry, so I've taken a particular interest in this article and the outcome of this NPOV matter. I just can't even begin to understand where someone gets off considering it acceptable to delete and swiftly hide someones post calling it an ignorant rant (because protecting racism is enlightened!) so it's obvious that this cancer spreads further than first thought. 60.225.69.174 (talk) 14:05, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum for TheOldJacobite: given the plethora of barn stars your user page seems to display, you ought to know what is appropriate and what isn't when it comes to editing talk pages and behaviour that is unacceptable[1], and you've already been spoken to on numerous occasions regarding civility and your behaviour on Wikipedia[2], so please bare these things in mind and do not attempt to delete, alter, or otherwise molest this discussion. 60.225.69.174 (talk) 14:54, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Is it your contention the "campaign" to reverse the colour order of the traffic light was racist, or that the way it is written about in the article or, indeed, the fact that it was written about at all, is racist and POV pushing? FiachraByrne (talk) 17:32, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

My issue is purely with the content of the article. The way that the issue has been portrayed reads like a 'lol boys will be boys' type retort to an overt instance of racism. There are many instances of racism brought from 'the old country' between many races dealt with on Wikipedia, however I have yet to see one with so many weasel words or so much mitigation of avoiding calling a spade a spade where a campaign of vandalism and bullying yielded in the accepted defacement of an international symbol purely because it was too detrimental to try and enforce policy and rationalism.

I don't know much at all about the beef between the two races in question and thus don't feel confident enough to modify the article myself; however I appear to have made TheOldJacobite angry. Examining his user history it appears that he has a very keen interest in all things Irish, especially the IRA in the past. After deleting my first comment on the talk page calling it an idiotic rant, he has also reversed my NPOV claim stating 'because I said so' as cause in his follow up and then reported me to the administrators on an API notice board (which was taken down by an admin).

I am re-applying the NPOV flag but do not feel comfortable proceeding with my complaints regarding this topic given his extensive history. Clearly bullying and vandalism to force an agenda contrary to policy and rational thought doesn't just apply to the stone throwing natives of Tipperary hill, and unfortunately I--like the 'town fathers' (Who uses that term, seriously? Gah, article quality! D:<)--would rather concede than face further trouble. Even a cursory examination of TheOldJacobites history and a google search will tell you that he has conduct issues aplenty and no amount of discussion will yield any sane or reasonable agreement on issues relating to his specific fields of interest.

I hope the editors of this article can do something with it to remove the agenda, re-work the strange nomenclature, and generally bring the article up to speed and standing, but as I have no dog in this race I definitely have no reason to have to deal with farcical admin complaints, defacements, reverts, and censoring to try and help it get there. 60.225.69.174 (talk) 18:11, 15 November 2012 (UTC) (Please direct any Talk Page correspondence to User:BaSH PR0MPT (on holidays, can't recover my pass from here!) if you need me.)[reply]

And now TheOldJacobite is constantly removing the NPOV tag even though the dispute isn't resolved, citing 'because I say' as cause. :/ I'm not here to get into petty edit wars, I've reached out to him to address his conduct. We'll probably need to get 3OP or dispute resolution involved to get anywhere as far as even the possibility of examining the way the racist elements in the stop light section goes and the weasel word and general article quality issues. Are any regular editors of this article or locals available to assist in reworking that section specifically? Preferably someone who is neutral, doesn't have a vested interest, yet has enough connection to the article to ensure that edits made do justice to it and improve it's quality? 60.225.69.174 (talk) 18:40, 15 November 2012 (UTC) (User:BaSH PR0MPT)[reply]

NPOV

There is no NPOV issue in this article. The discussion of the traffic light incidents is factual and well-referenced, not slanted or opinionated. The recent edits, including the rants here on the talk page, seem to be an example of I don't like it, which is not a legitimate position to take in a talk page discussion. There is no "blatent {sic} racism" in this article, as the anon. user claims, and the accusation is absurd and insulting on its face. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 16:12, 9 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, there is no NPOV issue in this article. The anon. who has made repeated complaints has shown no evidence of POV and only repeats that [WP:I DON'T LIKE IT|he doesn't like it]], which is irrelevant. Most of his commentary on this page is devoted to stating his opinions about this article and my editing history, which is also irrelevant. ---The Old Jacobite_{The '45} 18:17, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

This issue is not resolved. Please refrain from constantly removing the NPOV tag, it's written right on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.225.69.174 (talk) 18:32, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Because I said so." isn't exactly the kind of discussion that moves an article forwards. The neutrality of this article is in question given that systematic acts of vandalism and bullying of council have been negated and mitigated beyond reproach.

Given your extensive edit history and interest in all things Irish, especially the IRA, you obviously do have a dog in this race and I ask you to refrain from arbitrarily removing my posts, be they discussion, or the NPOV flagging of the article.

You may wish to consider just how close you are to this article to be able to remain objective. I have never in my many, many years editing on Wikipedia been censored, suffered personal attacks and implications my views are idiotic, and then arbitrarily had someone file a complaint to administrators over one single post. Again, these may be strong signs that you have far too much interest in the way the article is worded, as these are not actions of a normal Wikipedian over a legitimate concern for racism.

I have outlined my view above in the original NPOV sub-section, I am unsure why you have created a new section for this. I attempted to contact you on your talk page but you seem to have had it protected to avoid complaints about conduct (per your edit history and 'alternative' talk page) but again I strongly suggest you consider the frequency of conduct warnings you receive and the strange behavior you have illustrated in this instance and ask you to perhaps consider leaving the addressing of NPOV issues within this to folks with less of a vested interest for the sake of neutrality and article quality.

I do not wish to get into an edit war or login to find new messages and reverts and censoring and dibby-dobbing to admins and general internet-craziness as this is not productive nor how I (or most people) wish to contribute or spend our time working on the Wikipedia project and am stepping out of this issue. Whilst I am a solid candidate for assisting with fixing up the elements of racism in this article given that I am as far removed as you can get from the issues at hand, and especially given my history of time contributed to 3OP and the mediation team, I have grave misgivings that your conduct will directly impact on my sanity and comfort. 60.225.69.174 (talk) 18:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC) (User:BaSH PR0MPT)[reply]

Addendum: You have again removed the NPOV tag, citing the same reference to lack of NPOV being 'because I say,' you are entitled to your opinion however you cannot force it onto others, there is a reason policies are in place and arbitrary censorship is not in any way part of these policies, so please, feel free to discuss and expound your point of view as frequently and often as you please, but stop trying to force the outcome you desire from the issues raised. 60.225.69.174 (talk) 18:28, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see anthing racist or POVpushing about this section. It seems to be sourced to local newspapers and discusses a local anomaly, namely the upside down traffic light and its origins. It isn't POV violating just because you don't like it personally. Even if the actual events were racially or ethnically motivated, that doesn't mean we should not have a well written neutral description of the events. He iro 19:29, 15 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, Heiro. I removed the tag. No more. Drmies (talk) 02:02, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the tag is warranted, but I object on some level to the phrasing in the sixth paragraph of that section, in particular "It was explained to him carefully" and "When the commissioner did not quite get the point, it was explained to him carefully." The rest is completely factual, but these small phrases don't seem NPOV to me at all. I would change them myself, but this issue seems to be quite contentious, so I thought I'd ask for input. Frankly, it's condescending towards the commissioner, and appears to represent the Irish POV at the time, being that he was stupid not to accept their demands. Does anybody vouch for the wording as it is? It seems like the isolated but clear-cut example of non-NPOV within the section. Coppaar (talk) 02:15, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Good point Coppaar, good point! I've trimmed the entire section, including that paternalizing phrase you remarked on. This is all clearly written by someone with an interest in the locality, and from that perspective. What's being talked about here as quaint is in fact replete with excessive detail and trivia, and I hope that in days to come this article will be made more encyclopedic. Whoever authored this can copy an earlier version from the history to keep somewhere else as a record. Drmies (talk) 02:34, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the trimming of some of the more "flowery" language and making it a little more encyclopedic in tone. He iro 03:35, 16 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Possible copyright problem

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