Talk:Napoleon and the Jews

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 August 2018 and 4 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Joshua14314.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 01:24, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page.

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Temple of Solomon

There is a mildly relavant famous quotation from Napoleon, "If I governed a nation of Jews, I should reestablish the Temple of Solomon." I'm not sure of the exact context, but I believe he was explaining his opposition to the extreme anti-Catholocism of the French Republic and proposing rapprochement with the Catholic Church, but still the quotation is probably well enough known that we might want to mention it here, giving context. If I have understood the context, it also indicates Napoleon as someone who simply found religion useful. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:34, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Good point. And a good quote. I modified the article to add that spin, setting up the already existing quote to better express his motivations. --Goodoldpolonius2 03:12, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Jewish state in Palestine letter

OK, I know you Americans are very keen on Israel and that it's not so true of the French, but still. Comparing the French and English versions of this article, I see that here more than half of it is a letter saying that Napoleon wanted to create a Jewish state in Palestine and the French article doesn't even mention it but is even larger. This leads me to several conclusions:

The historical importance is grossly overstated here and understated there. As I'm working on the English wikipedia, I'm going to make a summary followed by a link to the full text.
There is much more to say about Napoleon and the Jews than there is here, so I'm going to translate a lot of the French article into here.
I found myself some more work and my productivity at the office will further decrease because of that d*** f*****g wikipedia.

Jules LT 15:49, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Jules, I don't think that the difference is being keen on Israel, I think it has to do with the size of the block quote from the letter, which is, as you say, disproportionate to its importance, but simply the full text. Napoleon was much more important for his role in Jewish emancipation than he was for proposing a Jewish state. Feel free to adjust and expand, I look forward to reading it. You may want to look at the Jewish emancipation, Haskalah, and Jewish political movements articles to make sure they match your views, since they have related material. --Goodoldpolonius2 18:00, 14 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

This article and History of the Jews in France seem to carry different stories on the same topic: one says that Napoleon liked the Jews, the other that he disliked them. Could somebody knowledgeable about it do something coherent? David.Monniaux 17:48, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I did some additional research, and attempted to bring the two articles in sync, somewhere in between the tone of the first and second. --Goodoldpolonius2 22:13, 19 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Berel Wein

This edit removed:

Historian Berel Wein in Triumph of Survival states that Napoleon was primarily interested in seeing the Jews assimilate, rather than prosper as a separate community: "Napoleon's outward tolerance and fairness toward Jews was actually based upon his grand plan to have them disappear entirely by means of total assimilation, intermarriage, and conversion."

I'm inclined to restore, but the citation is vague (no edition, no page). The relevance seems clear, assuming the quotation is accurate, and I would not object to someone else restoring, even without better citation. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:47, 12 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I've restored it. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:12, 28 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Alsace

With reference to the Alsatian Jews, the following was cut anonymously and without comment: "He declared it dangerous to allow so large a preponderance of the Jews, who constituted a state within a state, in a part of the French empire bordering upon the territories of its enemies. A week later, however, he had reached a milder view, and in the same assembly declared against any persecution of them." I hesitate to readd it without a source. Does someone have one? - Jmabel | Talk 04:01, 3 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Neutrality

I am not positive that this article is written from a neutral standpoint. The article hints that Napoleon was a fair and well-to-do man. In reality, many of his decrees limited the power of the nation as a whole, including Jews. I do not think this article is neutral. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.199.230.233 (talk) 00:51, 29 March 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Napoleon and the Masons

Another group that arguably had a special relationship with Napoleon is the Freemasons. One one had, he is thought to have opposed certain far-left groups within the lodges, but obtained support from some of the more conservative Masonic leadership. He also contributed to spreading the French revolution to Spain and Germany and was a strong supporter of secularism, against the wishes of the Pope. ADM (talk) 11:59, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bonaparte and a Jewish state in Palestine

this part is lacking proper referencing, it cites a Fan page, or a blog... needs to be removed... Arab League User (talk) 04:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Massacre in Marseille

"(The return of the Bourbons was equally accompanied in 1815 by the massacre of Muslim troops who had served Napoleon, in Marseille.)"

This section near then end of the article has no reference. I am unable to find any reputable source to back it up. Could anyone find a suitable reference, I'm curious as to what actually happened. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.81.169 (talk) 16:30, 22 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Proposed Edits

Good evening,

I am currently enrolled in a Jewish History course; we have finished the unit on Jewish Emancipation in Europe.

After reading through the article, I was wanting to add some more information on the topics presented:

1) I plan to discuss in more detail the series of consistories that Napoleon implemented throughout Europe in the late nineteenth to early twentieth centuries: for example, I would like to discuss how he organized the consistories (with one central consistory in Paris, overseeing the other local consistories scattered throughout Europe). I also plan on adding detail regarding how consistory leadership was appointed. I plan to highlight the consistories' role as the conduits between French government and the local Jewish communities, communicating French ideals and desires to the Jewish community, and enforcing French ideals and law.

2) I plan on adding some more detail regarding the Infamous Decree that Napoleon implemented in 1808 - cancelling many of the debts owed to Jewish moneylenders. (The decree also has other implications, such as instating a draft of young Jewish men into the French army.) Napoleon also implemented another decree in 1808 requiring Jews to adopt personal names (rather than being addressed as "X son of Y").

3) I also plan to discuss the effects that the emancipation had on the Jewish community, specifically regarding the vast migration of Jews across France and eastern Europe that resulted. Similarly, there is evidence presented that many Jews did integrate into French society, some serving as important government officials

4) I also plan on revising the lead paragraph to include the material I added.

All of my information comes from the book The Jews of Modern France by Paula E. Hyman, the Lucy Moses Professor of Modern Jewish History at Yale University.

I would appreciate any comments or suggestions you may have on my proposed edits Joshua14314 (talk) 07:41, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This looks promising. It would have been nice to know where each of these changes are going to be in the article. I imagine the info on the consistories will add to what the article already says about consistories? And will the Infamous Decree information add to what the article already says about that? (by the way, the Wiki article uses French for the Infamous Decree; worth inserting a translation for non Francophone readers). Where will your number 3 go? But this looks like a great addition.Chapmansh (talk) 23:09, 20 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:History of the Jews in Abkhazia which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 05:14, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the Grand Sandherin article these are presented as laws that the Sandherin chose and Napoleon merely enforced

Seems like some movements are allowed to have it both ways, while most of the time wikipedia isn't permitted to directly contradict itself 206.174.198.66 (talk) 14:32, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Sandherin was convened by Napoleon to endorse what he wanted to do anyway - historians are quite clear on that. MrOllie (talk) 16:01, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This page directly contradicts other wiki pages

Notably the page on usury, the page on the Grand Sandherin and probably others, which put forward the "fact" that Jewish people were always forbidden from usury, and that in fact a council of rabbi's are the ones who told Napoleon,not vice versa as this page presents.

Which page is lying? 206.174.198.66 (talk) 14:36, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Neither. The Sandherin simply offered a new interpretation (it was not 'always forbidden' and neither article says so) that conformed to what Napoleon was looking for. MrOllie (talk) 16:02, 1 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

There's an interpretive controversy about Deuteronomy 23:20-21 that long predates Napoleon, and the majority view is that it allows Jews to pay interest to gentiles but not to charge interest. The Napoleonic Sanhedrin adopted that view over the minority view that charging of interest to gentiles was allowed. Obviously this was the interpretation that Napoleon wanted it to adopt but it also had authentic support in Jewish jurisprudence (as did most of the Sanhedrin's other answers). 100.33.53.237 (talk) 15:27, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]