Talk:Bachelorette party

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Sex vs gender

copied from my talk page

It appears you do not understand the difference between sex (i.e male and female, a biological construct) and that of gender identity. Th Wiki is not about gender identity, it is about the male and female sex. Hence it is *sex and not gender. Male and female, this is where we get sex, heterosexual, sex-equality, sexism etc from. Gender has nothing to do with it and I made clear the two things should not be confused.

Best regards /Eric

81.232.189.161 (talk) 13:30, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm transgender, so believe me when I say that I understand very well the difference. In your edit the first change you made was to link to sex equality, which guess what, is simply a redirect to gender equality. So that's basically pointless. The second one was about "sex stereotypes", but again, those stereotypes are about gender: Genitalia has nothing to do with social expectations of how men and women behave. As a final note, sex stereotype isn't even a redirect to anywhere, whereas gender stereotype leads to Gender role § Gender stereotypes; if you think otherwise, you are very welcome to create the article, naturally based on reliable academic sources. Thus, "gender" is the correct term in both those situations. —howcheng {chat} 16:43, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

You being "transgender" proves my point of you not understanding the difference between a biological construct sex(i.e. male and female ) and that of gender identity (of which there are around 20 at this point)

The Wiki clearly deals with the male and female sex, NOT gender identity.

Moving on...

Sex equality is the equality between the two sexes, again, male and female. The clue is in the name. It does not deal with equality on context of different gender identities. The redirect you referred to doesn't change this fact either.

Sex stereotypes are not about gender identity either, but about the stereotypes expressed by the two sexes (again, the clue is in the name) which again, deals with males and females. NOT people with different gender identities.

Before you proceed to revert my edit again, feel free to disprove that this Wiki deals with the male and female sex, NOT with different gender identities. Sex and gender are not the same thing, one is a biological construct, whereas the other is not.

Besides, if you claim that sex ( a biological construct) is the same as gender (which is not a biological construct)...well then you had no reason to revert my edits in the first place.

81.232.189.161 (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Best regards

/Eric

This is a classic bold, revert, discuss cycle. You were bold and made a change, I reverted. Now you need to establish consensus for your change via discussion. Until then, the article is to remain at status quo ante bellum – do not revert again or you will be subject to a WP:3RR block. Regardless, it is you who is confused. We're not talking about gender identity, but gender roles/stereotypes, which do not necessarily have to with sex. Regardless, if you wouldn't mind, please explain what you mean by "this Wiki": are you talking about this specific article, which is about bachelorette parties, or are you talking about Wikipedia in general? If the latter, please show where it's stated that Wikipedia "deals with the male and female sex". —howcheng {chat} 21:17, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

Quote

Do not revert again or you will be subject to a WP:3RR block.

Any contributor have the right to revert any article three times in the same day, something you should have been made aware of prior to taking it upon yourself to basically threaten another contributor with a block, thus abusing your admin privilege. Besides, you engaged me by reverting my edits, not the other way around. Kind of funny that you would try to flip the script. With that out of the way....

Quote

"Regardless, it is you who is confused. We're not talking about gender identity, but gender roles/stereotypes, which do not necessarily have to with sex."

We are talking about sex, which is a biological construct (i.e. male or female) that's where sex roles/sex stereotypes, heterosexuality, sexism, sex equality etc all come from. They all derive from the male and female sex, NOT gender identities (that's something new and completely different). Gender identity has absolutely nothing to do with this article at all, which you know yet took it upon yourself to be all concombatant, strident and accusatory.

Quote

If you wouldn't mind, please explain what you mean by "this Wiki": are you talking about this specific article, which is about bachelorette parties, or are you talking about Wikipedia in general?

Should have be self explanatory that we are talking about this wiki page, the one we are currently discussing.

Lastly...

Besides, if you claim that sex ( a biological construct) is the same as gender (which is not a biological construct)...well then you had no reason to revert my edits in the first place. So why did you?

Best regards

/Eric

81.232.189.161 (talk) 22:00, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

​ @Howcheng: is correct here, from what I've seen at least most articles usually write referring to gender identity- not sex. It would be weird to make the argument that transgender women don't attend bachelorette parties... TheAwesomeHwyh 20:49, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Or some nonbinary people! TheAwesomeHwyh 20:51, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Howcheng is most certainly not correct and I have clearly outlined why that is, you've missed the mark completely when dragging in transsexual people into the equation. The issue was not whether transsexual people attended bachelor and or bachelorette parties or not.

Added

Quote

"I meant that you should discuss on talk- not just revert" (now referring to this articles edit history section and the reason for revert made by TheAwesomeHwyh)

Did you know? Because you haven't been involved in the discussion prior to your post here, which means I'm beginning to suspect that you are Howcheng posting under a different account, what else am I to make of your comment.

Best regards

/Eric

81.231.159.206 (talk) 21:34, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

​I'm not Howcheng. I was patrolling for vandalism using WP:Huggle when I saw your edits. TheAwesomeHwyh 21:47, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Also accusing anyone (especially an admin!) is a huge claim. And please WP:Indent your comments. TheAwesomeHwyh 21:48, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I mean accusing of sockpuppetry, sorry. TheAwesomeHwyh 21:59, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

I stated my reasons for why giving clear reference, you had not participated in the discussion yet made a comment that suggested that you had. Hence my reaction. I wasn't accusing you of being a sockpuppet either, I wrote I suspected it. Glad it's been cleared up.

Best regards

/Eric

81.231.159.206 (talk) 22:19, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

​That edit was made to clarify the edit I had made before it. And just to be clear, I didn't mean that your edit was vandalism, just that I was looking for some to revert. TheAwesomeHwyh 22:24, 7 March 2020 (UTC)

Note that I wasn't threatening to block you. I was stating that if you reverted a third time, you could be blocked for violating 3RR. I certainly would have reported you, though. If I wanted to abuse my admin tools, I would have protected the page at my preferred version, which I did not. —howcheng {chat} 02:40, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Regardless, one of the phrases under discussion here is "social stereotypes of each [sex|gender] at the party". I think it is unambiguous that said stereotypes refer to behavior of men and women. At this point, I would like to direct your attention to the Google Ngram viewer: the graph makes clear that usage of "sex stereotype" has dropped drastically over recent years while "gender stereotype" has skyrocketed. Also, here is "gender stereotype" as defined in the US Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals ruling in R.G. & G.R. Harris Funeral Homes Inc. v. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission: discrimination “because of an individual’s transgender status is always based on gender stereotypes: the stereotype that individuals will conform their appearance and behavior—whether their dress, the name they use, or other ways they present themselves—to the sex assigned them at birth.”[1] (emphasis mine).

So if you insist that "sex stereotype" and "sex equality" are the correct terms we should be using, then please post your evidence. —howcheng {chat} 04:02, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Quote I think it is unambiguous that said stereotypes refer to behavior of men and women.

You are wrong, the context is the stereotypes between the sexes. That is what is being inferred too. Hence sex stereotypes, it derived from the differences between the two sexes (i.e. male and female)....gender is a new concept.

Quote At this point, I would like to direct your attention to the Google Ngram viewer: the graph makes clear that usage of "sex stereotype" has dropped drastically over recent years while "gender stereotype" has skyrocketed.

All that demonstrates is that people are using the terms (wrongly, I should add) interchangeably, they are still referring to the stereotypes between MEN and WOMEN. I.e. males and females i.e. the male and female SEX. They are not referring to any stereotypes of expressed gender identity, which again, is something completely different. Sex and gender is not the same thing.

Quote So if you insist that "sex stereotype" and "sex equality" are the correct terms we should be using, then please post your evidence.

I have. You just keep ignoring it.

Let's run a test, an experiment if you will. Do you call it sexism or genderism? Exactly, this is just one example out of many many more that demonstrates and proves my case. Again, it is about the two sexes. i.e. male and female, men and women. It is NOT about gender identity.

Best regards /Eric 81.231.159.206 (talk) 04:23, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

You haven't posted ANY evidence. You're just making assertions and arguing that we should believe what you say. I've given you data that shows "gender stereotype" is the commonly accepted term now. Editorial decisions on Wikipedia are made based on verifiability of information to published, reliable sources. If you cannot provide those sources, then there's no reason for us to listen to you. —howcheng {chat} 07:10, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

I have posted evidence and reliable sources, I have explained the linguistics giving you plenty of examples. You keep ignoring it, you have all along, which leads me to believe you are ego invested. The data you gave you me didn't challenge what I have argued all along either, I explained why in my previous post. Added, are you suggesting that "sex stereotypes" wouldn't be commonly accepted term now? If so, do you have any sources to back that assertion up with?

Now let me pose my question for a third time and one which you have yet to answer... if you claim that sex ( a biological construct) is the same as gender (which is not a biological construct)...well then you had no reason to revert my edits in the first place. So why did you?

I argue that this wiki is about the male and female sex, men and women. NOT that it's about different gender identities (something which I made perfectly clear in my 1st edit) the subject matter of this wiki is men and women.

By the way, do you say "sexism" or "genderism"? You haven't answered this one either. As you can see this all deals with the male and female sex, not gender identities.

You have to make up your mind, either you talk about the two sexes, or about different gender identities. You can't have it both ways.

Best regards /Eric

81.230.62.60 (talk) 11:21, 8 March 2020 (UTC)

Eric, I must apologize for wasting your time. Rightly or wrongly, Wikipedia uses the terms "gender equality" and "gender stereotypes", so making such changes is pointless here because we won't have internal consistency: it simply makes no sense for the primary article to use one term and this one to use another. This discussion should be taking place on Talk:Gender equality. What you want to do is request that the page be moved. Similarly, you'll want to open a discussion at Talk:Gender role to use the term "sex stereotype" rather than "gender stereotype" (or even have the page moved to sex role if that's how you feel). If you are able to get the consensus to do both of those, then come back here and there will be no problem with your proposed change. Best of luck. —howcheng {chat} 15:55, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

The changes made reflects internal consistence within the article itself, like I have pointed out (and demonstrated too you) it deals with the two sexes, male and female, women and men. Not with different gender identities. You may want to take the time and read it.

The terms that Wikipedia uses when you search for "sex equality" and "Sex stereotypes" has no bearing on this wiki article. The fact that Wikipedia uses "sex" (a biological construct) and "gender" (which is NOT a biological construct) interchangeably is not an issue I have raised at this point, which means you are now trying to move the goalpost. Nice try.

You say the changes are pointless, well if you view them as such you should have no objections to my edits in the first place, they shouldn't even bother you.

I also note that you keep avoiding the questions I have posed too you, looking for some consistence in your way of reasoning. With the exception of you trying to move the goalpost, I have not seen any.

Best regards /Eric 217.211.101.147 (talk) 17:53, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Howcheng is correct here that we should refer to "gender" and not "sex" in this instance. "Gender roles" and "gender stereotypes" are, in addition to being logically consistent terms, the most widely used in both academic and layperson discourse. A change here would also necessitate a large change throughout many hundreds of our articles, and such a change would need a wider consensus. — Bilorv (talk) 23:44, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Great article

Thoroughly well written description of a hens party :) Xxl The Club (talk) 04:43, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

CFNM Party

clothed females, naked male Party

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=CFNM%20party

https://metro.co.uk/2018/07/19/like-inside-cfnm-clothed-female-naked-male-fetish-parties-7733916/

... 0mtwb9gd5wx (talk) 00:12, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Bridal bash

Nowadays this term is often used instead of 'bachelorette party' and 'bridal shower' 202.164.137.57 (talk) 07:10, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

Please provide a link to a reliable source describing the "bridal bash" usage. Cullen328 (talk) 07:13, 30 November 2021 (UTC)