Talk:Human experimentation in North Korea

note

I think we need to be really careful with this one. The chemical experiments on dogs allegedly happening in Afghanistan were later proved to be propaganda, there are no chemical weapons in Iraq (despite that fact that we were told the contrary). I am not a supporter of the North Korean regieme, but I am a student of cold war propaganda. This seems too much like an attempt to make them out to be Nazis, especially with the current tension with this US regarding weapons of mass destruction. I'd want to be _really_ sure of sources before we spread this one around. Sorry. Secretlondon 19:21, Feb 2, 2004 (UTC)

(Moved from article. - Texture 18:05, 3 Feb 2004 (UTC))

I understand the vote for deletion is because some people are not sure if the reports are accurate. The strongest evidence for the allegations of human experimentation comes from the BBC. Despite the Hutton Report the BBC has a reputation for reliability. Readers will have to judge for themselves how much reliance to place on the BBC. - User:195.70.71.170

Moved from article:

I have tried repeatedly to edit the page on North Korea to add a link here. My edit keeps being deleted. Some one (some people) connected with North Korea must hate free speach. --User:Barbara Shack (sig added)

(This revision displays exactly how the link was placed.) Please cease making paranoid accusations and try talking to the people who reverted your edits. No-One Jones (talk) 05:14, 4 Feb 2004 (UTC)

"This subject matter belongs under the heading of human rights violations, torture, and experimentation on political prisoners. A person knowledgeable on the subject of international human rights instruments as well as the history of human rights violations could mention ongoing inquiries into current, unresolved allegations of experimentation in North Korea." GCW

I agree with what the user Secretlondon said. I feel that an independent encyclopedia should not be so quick to compare alleged human rights abuses to the German and Japanese human experimentation as this article does. Contrary to these experimentations, the data and details regarding the alleged North Korean abuses are foggy and the sources not always reliable. This Wikipedia article should at least make sure that both sides of the stories are clear. To this end, I've added an external link to a news story about a North Korean who fled the country and admitted to have faked reports on chemical testing. I would also like to see the comparison to Germany and Japan removed, but I'm not going to do so unilaterally before hearing other Wikipedians' take on this. Eyeflash 16:57, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Hmm.. the KCNA isn't the most reliable site either for news, it is mostly propoganda Towel401 11:32, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Also consider the posibility that the people who are admitting to lieing were cajoled into it by the North Korean government (threat to the rest of their family and friends). Even though they admitted to lieing, it could still be true. but nobody knows -Towel401 23:19, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Refutation

I merged the two paragraphs as both refutations were actually part of the same press conference by the same family. Ergative rlt 03:05, 9 January 2006 (UTC)

Oh God please delete this evil propaganda. "The Mother held her baby as she died in the gas chamber..."???? This is Wikipedia, not the sodding BBC.

How, exactly, could soaked cabbage leaves induce death by vomiting and anal bleeding? People eat cabbage rolls all the time - in which the cabbage leaves are soaked - and none of them die. Perhaps this point could use some clarification, because right now, it sounds like pure FUD. phrawzty 15:27, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

Obviously, these people died because the cabbage leaves were soaked in poison.Biophys 16:12, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

"including a mother who held her youngest child as she died."??, whoa, talk about an unsourced line. Whatever happened to sourcing your information?. Considering the tensions between the US and North Korea, i cant help but think that this is all propaganda, and of the worst dubious kind. The north koreans are also spreading their propaganda, according to them they saved a little girl from being a sex slave for the US congress... yet, you dont see that gem in any US article.200.83.57.71 00:05, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Renaming this article

I found and included in this article at least five reliable sources (according to WP:SOURCE) that claim about North Korean human experimentation. So can we call this simply "North Korean human experimentation"? Everything must be based on sources, and the denials by people who are held as hostages of the totalitarian government of North Korea mean nothing, although they should be mentioned. We have article "The Holocaust", not "Alleged Holocaust", or even Przyszowice massacre rather than "Alleged Przyszowice massacre". So, what is the difference?Biophys 20:31, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Holocaust is a proved fact. But North Korean human experiment is not proved fact. People alleged in reliable sources about human experimentation. But reliable sources not prove it, reliable sources only documents the allegations. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 20:35, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

So you think there is Category:Human experimentation in the United States but there is no North Korean human experimentation? Please take a look at article Human experimentation. It is a matter of fact that human experimentation was done in almost all countries, primarily for medical purposes.Biophys (talk) 21:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Human experimentation in the United States is a proved fact. Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male is not allegation by some persons, but it is a historically proved fact. Project MKULTRA, Milgram experiment, Stanford prison experiment, Oklahoma City sonic boom tests all are proved facts. But this article documents allegations. Hence the title starting with "Alleged North Korean human experimentation". Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 21:12, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Did not you look article human experimentation? Yes, it is fact in the US, UK, Russia, India, everywhere. All these countries test drugs on volunteers, which is human experimentation.Biophys (talk) 21:44, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

The discussion here is that whether human experimentation in North Korea a fact or allegation. The sources only documents allegations, hence the title. Also Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male is not acceptable, to infect others with Syphilis to see the effects is not acceptable. For details see Tuskegee_Study_of_Untreated_Syphilis_in_the_Negro_Male#Ethical_implications. It was similar to Nazi malaria experiment which was done for the purpose of studying malaria. Both Tuskegee Study of Untreated Syphilis in the Negro Male and Nazi malaria experiment targated a specific group and had disastrous effects on the subjects. Anyway, the discussion here about this article which is about allegations. "50 healthy women prisoners were selected and given poisoned cabbage leaves" it is not proved fact, one North Korean woman alleged this happened. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 22:06, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes it is a fact that medical experimentation is done on volunteers. But this article documents alleged unethical experimentation, not on volunteers. This unethical experimentation is not proved fact, but allegations made by some people which are gathered in sources. Hence the title "Alleged North Korean human experimentation". Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 22:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

So you think that was falsification? May I ask you a personal question? You have placed some citation of Lenin at your user page. Do you share these Lenin's views, or you think his ideas (cited by you) were wrong and you placed them to protest something?Biophys (talk) 22:18, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

What is your motivation? We are discussing about this article, not about any quote in any user page. Making an allegation does not mean it is wrong or correct. It is like Allegations of state terrorism by the United States‎ as opposed to State terrorism by the United Sates. Allegation is allegation, not fact. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 22:24, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

So you do not see any difference between the real torture of people in North Korea and false State terrorism allegations by the United States? I see a difference because I spend some years in the Soviet "empire of evil".Biophys (talk) 22:53, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

You are now emphasizing on your personal opinion. I am emphasizing on factual information. Wikipedia is not your personal website, you can write anything you wish in your personal website, but here you have to follow the sources. According to the sources, these are allegations as opposed to facts. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 22:59, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with my personal opinion. That were real events per sources. So, far we have only your opinion against mine. Therefore, the article should keep its stable title, as it was before your sudden renaming without consensus.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Biophys (talk • contribs) 22:21, 1 July 2008

I have protected the redirect Alleged North Korean human experimentation to stop the move war that is going on. User:Otolemur crassicaudatus if you still wish to move this page then put in a request at WP:RM. The admin who closes the debate can remove the protection and move the page if there is consensus to do so. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 09:27, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I would support renaming the article to "Unethical human experimentation in North Korea". 69.196.168.189 (talk) 19:43, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I propose renaming the article to " Unethical human experimentation allegations in North Korea" User : anonymous — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.67.92.59 (talk) 07:53, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Proposed renaming

Please see Talk:Human_subject_research#Human_subject_research_vs_human_experimentation_.28NPOV_title.29. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:06, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you kidding? Placing family with kids in a gas chamber was human subject research? Biophys (talk) 19:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

How about we keep the discussion centered in the discussion linked above? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:17, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Alright. NO. "subject research" isn't a real term, and dosn't covering gassing people to death anyway. 69.115.70.39 (talk) 00:14, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Comparison of North Korea with Nazi and US

You have placed a when I added the US to the list of states known for unethical human experimentation, and stated that I need a citation to compare the US to Nazis???...I was never comparing the two its merely fact that the states has done it, as you would see if you followed the page link( United States) I added to the page. Please remove the as there are 119 citations that confirm unethical human experimentation in the US.Passionless (talk) 17:22, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

I agree that human experimentation in US was unethical. There is no question about this. I asked to provide any source that specifically claims the following: "These reports show human rights abuses similar to those of Nazi and Japanese human experimentation during World War II and the United States throughout the 19th and 20th centuries", as should be clear from my edit [1]. Otherwise, this is WP:SYN. Biophys (talk) 17:30, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

In brief, the existence of human rights abuses in countries A, B and C does not mean that human rights abuses in countries A, B and C are similar (unless supported by good sources).Biophys (talk) 15:43, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

Well, the programs where similar enough between the US and Nazi Germany that many scientists at trial at Nuremburg cited a variety of US programs where people were subected to harm with no consent for government approved research. If these three bolded items can be found within US history than I believe that means the programs are similar enough to compare with Nazi Germany, which no saw as incorrect to compare to North Korea's highly unknown programs. So here are some of those US programs,

From 1950 through 1953, the US Army sprayed toxic chemicals over 6 cities in the United States and Canada, in order to test dispersal patterns of chemical weapons. Army records stated that the chemicals which were sprayed on the city of Winnipeg, Canada, included cadmium.(1)

To test whether or not sulfuric acid, which is used in making molasses, was harmful as a food additive, the Louisiana State Board of Health commissioned a study to feed "Negro prisoners" nothing but molasses for five weeks.(2)

Tuskegee syphilis experiment - withholding of a cure for syphilis from african americans to study their slow deaths Project MKULTRA -drugging without knowledge

There are many others still, although now that I look closer you may be able to remove '19th century' as these cruel experiments may not have been government organized/funded. Passionless (talk) 18:22, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

You are missing the point. Yes, there were serious violations in US and North Korea. But telling that they were similar and placing them together is your conclusion and therefore WP:SYN. I looked through The Black Book of Communism chapter about North Korea and found only one comparison with Nazi, with regard to Soap made from human corpses in certain North Korean camps. A typical "human experimentation" in North Korean camp is killing a family with kids in a gas chamber (arguably, just like Nazi) and breaking human skull with hammer to create "zombies" for target practice. Was it also done in US? Of course, if you can find reliable sources supporting your conclusion, your edit might be legitimate.Biophys (talk) 18:55, 5 October 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what your rambling on about but it was that I was missing the 'these reports show' part. Oh, and i"m putting a on the claims that there are reports suggesting North Korea'm programs are similar to the German's and Japanese. Passionless (talk) 00:44, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Agree. This should be removed too.Biophys (talk) 03:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

This entire article is a little dubious, frankly. These are serious allegations, and while we're all eager to believe that the Kims are capable of any monstrosity, the sources are pretty weak. While I'm sure that no shortage of prisoner abuse happens in NK, as in any despotic regime, it doesn't sound like there's any scientific objective. SDY (talk) 01:22, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, more sources should be used, and the article is poorly organized.Biophys (talk) 03:48, 6 October 2010 (UTC)

I removed as unsourced the comparison with Nazi and this statement: "These allegations of human rights abuses are denied by the North Korean government, who claim that all prisoners in North Korea are treated humanely." No objection to restore if this can be sourced.Biophys (talk) 22:13, 16 October 2010 (UTC)

I also rearranged materials, but did not check all sources, assuming good faith on the part of people who edited this before. A lot more needs to be done.Biophys (talk) 21:11, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

FALSE!

This article is nothing but a collection of LIES. Those north korean refugees would say anything to attract attention and make some money for interviews and donations from human rights organizations. They have NO proofs, and the tales they tell (yeah right, gas chamber for the whole family - SSSSURE!) are just cheap sensations without any chance to be disproved. Leo (talk) 18:25, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I just have a problem with this sentence "sometimes they hit prisoners with a hammer, on the back of the head. The poor prisoners then lose their memory": In general loss of memory are a consequence of temporal lobe "shock" and not occipital lobe or cerebelum shock.

anonymous 30/01/13 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.67.92.59 (talk) 07:46, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

According to this, other defectors deny Lee Soon Ok was ever a political prisoner.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:34, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Why would it be unbelievable for them to do these human experimentation? The USSR and the Nazis did and North Korea is every bit as totalitarian as those states. The claims of human experimentation shouldn't be rejected out of hand. - The Mummy

Who said it was unbelievable, Mummy? It's just these particular accusations don't stand up particularly well. Comparisons aren't evidence.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:31, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Scientist defection to Finland later proven false

According to Finnish media the claims of a North Korean scientist defecting to Finland were later proven to be incorrect, with even the original South Korean reported confirming it to be false. The South Korean reporter said the incorrect information had come from a North Korean human rights group. HraWeston (talk) 17:04, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

I've removed it from the article.--Jack Upland (talk) 03:31, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

References