Talk:Lapis lazuli

Source of contribution requested

Additional text by Arpingstone is similar to http://www.palagems.com/lapis_lazuli_bancroft.htm (see bottom of article, Palagems.com Lapis Lazuli Buying Guide, By Richard W. Hughes). It's not identical, but presumably derived from the same source. This source should be named in the article and should also be checked for copyright problems.

-( —Preceding undated comment added 21:42, 8 February 2003

Hi to the writer of the above. Yes, this was obviously one of my sources and I now regret not changing the wording more, I will do so if an Admin asks me to. However I used only a tiny fraction of the text on that site so I think it's OK. On the question of references, I used 14 sources for the article (6 gem books I own and 8 web sites) so the reference list would be very long!

I think that each article in Wikipedia should be self contained and therefore not need references so I made the article quite long to include all the facts about lapis. To get more the reader can simply type Lapis Lazuli into Google, I think any web user would know to do that. I am not therefore much in favour of references (which can go out of date) whereas Google (obviously) will always be up to date.

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate your concern but I think all is well.

(By the way, it wasn't additional text, the whole thing is my work) Arpingstone 13:49 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

My understanding of copyright is that this is the wrong way to go about things. If you take some text and change it, what you have is a "derived work" and the copyright of the original author still holds. However facts can not be copyrighted, so it's perfectly OK to make a list of facts from an article and then write something new based on these facts (to me this is bizarre and the world would be better off if copyright was abolished, but that's irrelevant from a legal point of view).

I think it's important that the references are included, since a) a reader can decide whether the information is likely to be correct, based on where it comes from b) the reader can go and find further information or check the accuracy of the article c) it helps avoid accusation of plagiarism, since you're admitting the source of the information already (e.g., see the article I just about Elizabeth Fry whos picture I'd found on a five pound note but was unknown to me).

I think it's unlikely that you'd need to cite all of the 14 sources you mention: most likely you'd only need to take information from a few and the rest would be duplicates. But if necessary, it'd be fine to list all 14 sources. -( 14:53 Feb 9, 2003 (UTC)

"...one of the oldest of all gems..."

What exactly is meant by "...one of the oldest of all gems...?" Such a phrase makes it sound like it is one of the oldest gems to form in the history of the earth. Is that what the phrase is meant to mean? Or is it meant to mean that it is one of the oldest used by man? Kingturtle 09:04, 28 Sep 2003 (UTC)

: Should be rephrased " ... oldest known gem ... ".  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anw k1 (talk • contribs) 05:43, 6 November 2015 (UTC) 

Grammar usage query

Is the term 'cast' as used in the description paragraph: 'these are often a very dark blue with a noticeable grey cast' a specialist useage, and if so should it be explained here? Although I guessed it's likely meaning, I needed to look it up to confirm (='tinge' or 'shade'?). I suppose it's a question of expected reader literacy, but personally I wouldn't expect most readers to be confident of what is meant in this context. But I could well be wrong - anyone agree?

PS re. q from Kingturtle above, I did understand the phrase to mean one of the oldest used by man, but I agree perhaps this could be clearer. Garrog 11:11, 29 September 2005 (UTC)

Chemical formula

If I find the chemical formula of lapis lazuli in a book and I put it in the article, would I have to cite the source? Because I found it in a book somewhere. Evan Robidoux 10:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Yes please. Verifiability is crucial to the development of wikipedias reputation as an accurate source of information.SauliH 01:00, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

Menotti

With the passing of the Composer Gian Carlo Menotti this week (2.1.2007) it might be appropos to include a reference to Lapis Lazuli in his Television Opera Amahl and the Night Visitors one of the Kings, Casper, I believe, sings about one of the drawers of the box he carries with him to ward off disease, evil and danger and includes a reference to " One Lapis Lazuli against quaterne(sp?) fever"Wenshott 22:34, 3 February 2007 (UTC)Wenshott 2.3.2007 3:33 pm MST

Indian name for Lapis Lazuli

What's name for Lapis Lazuli in any Indian language ? Is it panna normally speken together with Diamond as Heera - Panna ? WIN 07:10, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Scale?

Can we have a picture with a pencil or some other thing used to denote the scale? Thanks.--0rrAvenger 01:03, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Cleanup of references and external links

I have moved some links from the References section to External links, as they were not used as references. Additionally, I have removed the following links:

Peter Bancroft, Lapis Lazuli from Afghanistan in Gem and Crystal Treasures (1984) Western Enterprises/Mineralogical Record, Fallbrook, CA - Palagems information page

Emporia.edu What is it?

The first link was to a site that primarily sells products, and is therefore inappropriate. The second link was to an undergraduate student's presentation which is of questionable value when industry sources are available for citation. Maralia 17:04, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Can someone who knows how the phrase "lapis lazuli" is pronounced please provide a pronunciation guide? I.e. is it LAY-pis LA-zoo-lee? LA-pis la-ZOO-lie? Something that's a mixture of the two? I can translate it into IPA for the article if someone can provide a layman's pronunciation here. Chaoticfluffy (talk) 20:35, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

• The New Penguin English Dictionary also gives 'lapis 'lazyoolie /lee - so it differs from the pronunciation given. I'll add it:) Malick78 (talk) 14:09, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

LA-pis LAZoo-lie (as in untruth) is mostly what I hear at gem shows & such (SW-US). --Pete Tillman (talk) 03:33, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Popular Culture

Maybe a Popular Culture section should be added for things that reference the stone in a large way such as Minecraft and how it uses the gem as a dye for wool. 98.240.134.219 (talk) 00:43, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Maybe not ... there is already a section for uses and we don't need a trivia list. Vsmith (talk) 01:39, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

We wouldn't necessarily need a list, because I've seen plenty of "Popular Culture" sections written in a nice essay-type form. Beyond that, however, we would need sources AND more instances of lapis lazuli in popular culture. Venku Tur'Mukan (talk) 03:39, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I would wager, in many countries, that lapis lazuli is better known because of Minecraft than for any other reason (guilty as charged). I agree that it may be worth mentioning. Rip-Saw (talk) 00:08, 25 March 2013 (UTC)

Especially now that lapis is used as more than a dye, since it's required for enchanting. 70.15.250.19 (talk) 17:56, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Don't forget stained clay! 99.245.142.228 (talk) 21:04, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

Also Steven Universe. Benjamin (talk) 21:58, 11 February 2018 (UTC)

I think it would be worthwhile to start a talkpage list of appearances in pop culture, so far we have Minecraft and Steven Universe. Regicide1 (talk) 14:31, 18 September 2020 (UTC)

FORMATION/ What Creates It In Nature? (Article Needs A Section On This)

The article needs the following information-- "How is it formed/created in nature?"

205.169.70.175 (talk) 23:36, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

(10 years later) The article still needs the following information-- "How is it formed/created in nature?" And why does it occur in large quantities mainly in Afghanistan and only a few other places in the world? This is basic information that should have been included since the original version of this article, but was ignored/neglected for a full decade now. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 21:49, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Afghanistan?

The first half of the article seems to suggest that LL was (pre)historically won in and traded from Afghanistan, and "even" goes as far as to suggest that LL sourced in Afghanistan was traded all the way from there to Mauritania (West Africa). The second half of the article suggests that LL is being produced all over the world, and not just Afghanistan. This casts doubt on the earlier claim that all Ancient LL is Afghan.--JeR (talk) 09:10, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Because all of Lapis originates from Afghanistan and was traded to different empires and civilizations. I am not aware of Lapis Lazuli being traded all the way to west Africa? Akmal94 (talk) 23:18, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

Terms

This article says that the Egyptians obtained lapis lazuli via trade with “Aryans.” “Aryans“ is a racially-charged term, as it tends to be treated as a synonym for ”Caucasians.”

The term “Indo-European” is the generally preferred substitute for “Aryans,” as it is more widely (and correctly) understood as referring to a language family rather than to race.

I don’t know how to correct this section, however, since in order to do so I would need to know the specific nation or ethnic group who provided the lapis to the Egyptians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Valerie voigt (talk • contribs) 20:54, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Aryan is not a race nor a synonym to Caucasian. It’s another word for the more widely accepted “Iranian peoples” or iranic. They were a branch of the Indo-European people. 99.247.39.205 (talk) 02:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: HA 100-300

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 17 January 2022 and 13 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sophialeis (article contribs). Peer reviewers: Spencerrae, Sammi14!.

Are lājevard and Sar-i Sang the same?

I've done a little spruce up by combining Major sources and etymology into one section, History; I hope it is productive. In the future it will be good to absorb in the text from the Science/sources section; perhaps then the whole lot can be named Origin.

In any case, there is a bit of a discrepancy. Sources in articles such as Badakhshan Province#Economy and Mining in Afghanistan#History suggest a rather disorganised history, but they seem to at least imply Sar-i Sang is a mine from which historical lapis was sourced.

But the etymology of lazuli is, as the Wiktionary article suggests, via Persian lājevard, which is commonly interpreted as a place name. No source I can find so far directly implicates lājevard as a place name beyond etymological guesswork.

Do we have a source that adequately identifies the two as the same mine? My gut feeling is that they are indeed one and the same (abandoned and resettled with a different name), but I am having a little difficulty finding non-etymological sources that actually show this. Without question both are mines in Badakhstan – I just have my doubts that they could, for example, be sister mines. It's unclear, so I hesitate to identify them as being one and the same! Mia ^{a data witch (chat)} 00:36, 12 August 2024 (UTC)