Talk:Main Page/Archive 6
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Has anyone seen this, one of the most recent pages of Search Engine Watch, of 10 Feb. by Chris Sherman, their editor?
http://searchenginewatch.com/searchday/03/sd0210-wikipedia.html
Very interesting and all about Wikipedia.
--Dieter Simon 18:42 Feb 11, 2003 (UTC)
Could someone with editing right on main page please change Bosanskom to Bosanski (as it is correct usage). --User:Goran Feb 14, 2003 (UTC)
- Done Enchanter 00:29 Feb 15, 2003 (UTC)
Happy late Valentines Day, everyone!!
Could we get Global protests against war on Iraq in Recent Events, please? - Montréalais
- It's related to the already listed U.S. Plan to invade Iraq so it is covered by that. --mav
- I dunno, Mav. I think if the US abruptly declared war, or Saddam Hussein got assassinated, or something, we'd probably put it in Recent Events, right? I think punctual, important events are worthwhile in Recent Events even if they are somehow subsumed into an ongoing story. - Montréalais
- Yes it would be a big - yet very notable - bummer if Dubya was assassinated. Then people wouldn't have nearly as many excuses to hate Americans. I see your point. --mav
Hmmnn who is 'Dubya'? And by the way, can't wait for some type of marker to be back!! Patience, Antonio, Patience..LOL Antonio The Pimp Martin...lol!
- King George 'Dubya' Bush user:Zanimum
Someone needs to check on the Hizballah page. Im not sure if there is a copyright violation there.
- Been there. See talk page. --mav
I suggest add the ja: (japanese ) link to wikipedia main page.
- done. --mav
Just noticed it says "العربية‬ (Araby)". Don't actually know any arabic, but wouldn't "العربية‬" be "Al araby", and "Araby" be "عربية"? (Not sure what the ة is for.) Cyp 13:51 Feb 23, 2003 (UTC)
- I think an arabic page it´s a good idea. That is the ISO abbreviation for the language??
The top of the page and the side of the page disagree on Polish: Polska vs. Polski. AxelBoldt 19:04 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)
- I think it should be Polski, as both places refer to language. If any refered to 'polish version', then it would be Polska. Matusz 19:42 Feb 26, 2003 (UTC)
I suggest add the ia: (interlingua) link to wikipedia main page. -- Ensjo, 2003 Feb 24
How about adding Timelines to "Other Category Schemes", since this is a way of accessing a lot of wikipedia information. dml Feb 24 2003
- Done. --mav 03:34 Feb 25, 2003 (UTC)
Iraq crisis, 2003 is a new top level for the various articles on this hot subject. U.S. plan to invade Iraq is only one element of this crisis. Credibility of the UN Security Council, role of weapons inspectors, precedents for North Korea and Iran in the "Axis of Evil", Blair's continuing as PM of the UK despite Labour Party opposition, fate of publicly owned oil infrastructure and rights in Iraq, fate of Baath party, NATO splits, Turks' role in Kurdistan, etc., are all involved. Also, the second that the war is either started or avoided, the "U.S. plan to invade Iraq" will become quite irrelevant - it will either *be* a war (not a "plan") or it will just be a 'crisis' that Saddam is stil sitting there, or Baath still sitting there, or that the UN looks effective or ineffective, or that the Turks invade Mosul... whatever happens, the UN is already using the term 'humanitarian crisis', so that word 'crisis' is in play.
The new article is focused on listing the various impacts discussed in the news and the other articles. It has a timeline only for future events, and could link to a timeline of past events if we want to assemble that. It links to all the other articles I could find. It takes a likely-impact view not a who-supports-the-present-US-plan view.
If you agree with these changes please help with the article and then add Iraq crisis, 2003 to the Main Page to replace U.S. plan to invade Iraq.
- I agree that U.S. plan to invade Iraq is too specific but Iraq crisis, 2003 needs to be developed more before it replaces U.S. plan to invade Iraq in the Selected Articles section. --mav
- Working on it. Need help. Current events such as Turkey/Kurd conflict and UK Labour Party revolt now covered in timeline. New current events should go to Iraq crisis, 2003 first, and then their long term impact can be assessed and other articles updated.
- Also, War on Terrorism and Israeli-Palestinian conflict and anti-war protests are of interest now mostly because of the Iraq crisis, and thus not having a proper top-level article is forcing other things off the ongoing events list. For instance, the US decision to send combat troops to the Phillipines is a veyr important element of the War on Terrorism but is almost going unnoticed due to the Iraq noise. Let's cast some light on these things while the mass media gets distracted by that noise. And, let's clear room on the ongoign events bar for things that have nothing to do with the US, if that's possible. Half the items on the ongoing events, at least, should be things that aren't of great interest to Americans, as a start. It would be nice if we didn't give free publicity to wars that might not happen.
I think the "selected articles" section looks better like this (with bold rather than italic headings);
Please go ahead and edit Main Page/Temp to reflect your idea - we can then debate whether or not it
is a good idea. --mav 20:32 Feb 27, 2003 (UTC)
I understand that DNA / Crick / Watson was 50 years ago today. -- SGB 2003-02-28
- It was an announcement on BBC breakfast news this morning. No other details. -- SGB 2003-02-28
Please add Roger Needham to recent deaths on the main page. MB 23:39 Mar 3, 2003 (UTC)
- Done. --mav 00:17 Mar 4, 2003 (UTC)
Is this a better place than VillagePump to place suggestions for changes to links on the main page (but not those only of current interest)? For example, I suggested adding the By Alphabetical Order page, and I would also like to suggest that the main page change the List of reference tables or add a new link with the more familiar term Almanac (as a redirect) to help folks find it. Thanks for listening. - Brettz9 21:06 Mar 5, 2003 (UTC)
It is now 40 years to the month since Dr Beeching in Britain unveiled the plans to cut the UK's railway network, or the Beeching axe Wouldent it be a good idea to put this in the historical anniversaries section.User:G-Man
As it says on the top of this page all requests for listing items in the Selected Articles section should be directed to Wikipedia talk:Selected Articles on the Main Page. The guidelines for getting topics listed in the various parts of Selected Articles are at Wikipedia:Selected Articles on the Main Page. --mav
I suggest add automatically the [[user:]] links in wikipedia to text written by the user in talk pages ( the user could include this option in preferences). Or, at least, create an autotext to include the user link when included in a talk page. Mac
- How does this relate to the Main Page? It looks like you are talking about sigs, no? Just type three ~ and hit save for an automatic sig. --mav
- The ~~~ trick is described in wikipedia:how to edit a page (or click "Editing help" in any edit window). Martin
- I didn´t know where ask the question and for me was neccessary to subscribe in the talk main page. Thank you a lot for the information.
Moved from Wikipedia:Village pump:
Thank you. Sorry but can do me a favor again? Put this to main page. [[af:HomePage]][[ar:HomePage]][[da:Forside]][[de:Hauptseite]][[en:Main Page]][[eo:%C4%88efpa%C4%9Do]][[es:Portada]][[fr:Accueil]][[it:HomePage]][[ko:대문]][[nl:Hoofdpagina]][[pl:Strona główna]][[ru:Main_Page]][[su:HomePage]][[zh:首页]] I found this list in ja wikipedia, which seems more comprehensive than current one. -- Taku 03:43 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)
- There already is a comprehensive list on the Main Page under the In Other Languages area. Some of the links you've listed are to wikis that don't even have a Main Page. --mav
Aside from Sudan, all of them have homepage I think. And it is quite convinient and normal to have language links. -- Taku 05:24 Feb 24, 2003 (UTC)
- If we include some of the smaller wikis as interlanguage links on the Main Page then it would only be fair to include all of them. That would mean that people at 800 x 600 screen resolutions will be greeted not by content on the Main Page but by a screen full of language links. --mav
Can someone update: [1], so that there is more to choose from? Many gaps have been filled since last update. -user:Zanimum
- I have generated an up to date list at Wikipedia:Most wanted articles. Enchanter 18:32 Mar 7, 2003 (UTC)
- Thank you ever so much. -user:Zanimum
I have two questions.
- 1)re Bix - as it's the centenial of his birth, being marked internationally with concerts, radio shows, and at least two festivals, I thought it a worthy historical anniversary to mark. Mav, do we just have a difference of opinion, or is there a critiria that disqualifies it that I've missed?
- 2) the "br" hard return after Atom bomb. Why? Are the items before the "br" in a different category than those below it? If so, perhaps there should be some indication of that in the text. (The hard return just makes the text look out of balance to me.) Cheers, -- Infrogmation 21:15 Mar 10, 2003 (UTC)
- Hm. 100 years... Since the celebration for it is current, this is more of a current event. The historical anniversaries is for events that were momentous when they happened.
- The br is to align the second line of historical anniversaries with the other lines right above it. If this is not done then the first line on historical anniversaries extends all the way to the right margin which is very ugly at higher than 800 x 600 screen resolution. --mav
- Thanks for your reply. I still have a problem with the second item. The br seems to be having a very different effect on my end: Historical aniversaries with 3 items on that first line, then just 1 item on the next line, with the remaining 3/4ths of the line blank line after the br, then another full line of items, then a fourth line with the last two items. That's with Opera. Okay,now I just looked with IE expecting it to look better, but I get the same thing except for 2 items on the second (with the br) of the four lines. I presume whatever you're trying to do depends on screen size or text size or browser. Might there be another way to do it which won't produce the problems I see? -- Infrogmation 21:45 Mar 10, 2003 (UTC)
I don't know of any. From what you describe the whole Selected Articles table should have similar problems on each line. The lowest common denominator I use for the table are; 800 x 600 screen resolution, standard font sizes, maximized browser window with the sidebar enabled (this is more or less the industry standard for minimum specs and also represents the largest single group of net users). So anybody with a screen resolution that is less 800 x 600 (640 x 480 for example), or with larger than standard font sizes, will have less than great results. --mav
I need my counteeeeerrrrsssssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!! LOL
Zoran Djindjic has been assassinated. - Montréalais
I think Elizabeth Smart should be listed on the main page, In The News area...after all, she was found alive today.
What makes the Internet Encyclopedia a "sister project"? I looked it up in the wikipedia, but there is no article on Internet encyclopedia. Ortolan88 19:14 Mar 13, 2003 (UTC)
- That's what I would like to know. According to Fred it is a fork but it really is just a derivative project with very different policies ("Multiple Point of View" instead of NPOV, for example). I vote for removal of the link. Perhaps we should have an "Unwanted Step-child Project" section. ;-) --mav
Happy birthday (Mar. 14) to Albert Einstein -- IHCOYC 12:35 Mar 14, 2003 (UTC)
I don't much like the "Content Enhanced" button. It looks out of place and doesn't really tell anyone anything. If anything, we should have a GFDL button. I'm going to remove it unless anyone has a strong objection. --The Cunctator
Frankestein is the 7th item for Historical anniversaries. It is in italics, the first item on the left, and there is no dash after Nessie, making it look like a heading at first glance. May I suggest we accept Maveric149's 2003-02-27t20:32z suggestion to use bold text for headings. Also, please link to the ongoing Global protests against war on Iraq article. - I am Jack's username, 2003-03-16t07:22+02:00
Re Infrogmation's 2003-03-01t21:15z comment: if the block is going to be changed, why not use the blockquote tag to make the multi line entries liquid (flow into whatever resolution the user is using) and remove the line break tag. - I am Jack's username, 2003-03-16t08:22+02:00
- Yeah, a dash should be at the end of the first line (but I'm about to add more events so Frankestein is going to move anyway). I wouldn't mind having the subheads being bold but a few other people really didn't like it for some reason. If I muster-up enough courage I'll do that later. The br tag is needed so that the box correctly centers itself at higher resolutions. Maybe you can show me what you mean by editing Main Page/Temp. --mav
I'm doing it here in talk, because the border around the table doesn't look nice in Mozilla:
Domestic Security Act - Phil Spector - Václav Havel - Shuttle disaster - Richard Reid
Recent deaths: Lou Harrison - Crew of STS-107 - Lord Younger - Lord Dacre - Gianni Agnelli
Ongoing events: Israeli-Palestinian conflict - Plan to invade Iraq - War on Terrorism - North Korea
Historical anniversaries: Gary Powers - Joseph McCarthy - The Beatles - Mary I - Confederacy - Jean Aristide - Maastricht treaty - Spanish-American War -
Note that there are no line breaks in the historical anniversaries group. In the historical anniversaries group I also put non-breaking spaces for multi word article names to prevent them from being split at the end of a line, and I put non-breaking spaces before the dashes to prevent a dash from being the first character on a new line. On high resolutions the right margin isn't as justified (aligned) as before. - I am Jack's username, 2003-03-16t09:02+02:00
- The first line then fills the screen at higher res. See media:Maveric149-temp.png. Same problem with Mozilla too. --mav
- Yeah, that's jarring - my resolution at 1152x864 doesn't make it stand out as much. Also, a table would be better since these aren't quotes. - I am Jack's username, 2003-03-16t10:25+02:00
Add Rachel Corrie to Recent Deaths. Susan Mason
- could someone write about the International Solidarity Movement? It's one thing to have an article on this one person, but it gives the reader much more of an overview to have an article on the organisation which is behind these events and its principles -- Tarquin 09:26 Mar 17, 2003 (UTC)
Should US invasion of Iraq or Iraq disarmament crisis go into recent events, what with the 48-hour deadline? Geoffrey 01:25 Mar 18, 2003 (UTC)
- I've looked at both articles and haven't seen a mention of this deadline in either. That along with a linked date is a basic prerequisite of inclusion in the In the news section. Also Iraq disarmament crisis is already linked in the Ongoing events area. That leaves us with US invasion of Iraq. If that is updated then it can be listed in the In the news section. Then after a few days if we are at war then that can replace Iraq disarmament crisis in the Ongoing events area. --mav
- Okay, I added an introductory paragraph (which it was lacking) along with developments from Monday's speech (and also had dates, forgot to say -01:08 UTC). (See Wikipedia:Be bold in editing pages.) It's 23:23 UTC, the deadline expires at 01:00...unless the Apocalypse occurs within the next hour and a half, there will be an attack. At this time, it's not very ongoing. Geoffrey 23:23 Mar 19, 2003 (UTC)
- How about the Global protests against war on Iraq? More protests are planned on the day of the first major strike. Adding it thus would add only one character to the line length:
- How about the Global protests against war on Iraq? More protests are planned on the day of the first major strike. Adding it thus would add only one character to the line length:
Israel/Palestine - Iraq crisis and protests - War on Terrorism - North Korea crisis
- Then the protests would be a current event, no? --mav
The main page should have a sentence in the top blurb to the effect:
"We appreciate it if new users register before editing, so we can know who you are. You may also edit your user page."
Or something like that.
--jaknouse
- Why? There is already a statement pointing them to the sandbox and the words "log-in" on every page an anon sees. We needn't re-clutter the Main Page again just to beat anons over their heads to log-in - it is their right to contribute as anons if they want. --mav 03:10 Mar 19, 2003 (UTC)
- I respectfully disagree. I think you are not adequately accounting for normal human psychology. "Log-in" just does not register as "register" to most people, and they also wouldn't think to look to the sandbox for registration. --jaknouse
- Somebody has already mentioned that "log-in" should perhaps be replaced by "register" for people that do not have a Wikipedia cookie set. But that is something that is low on the developers to-do list. There still is no reason to clutter the Main Page - esp since the great majority of anons arrive here via Google and never see the Main Page. --mav 23:32 Mar 20, 2003 (UTC)
- Well, you're absolutely right about how people enter; it was the same with me. I was searching for something and it came up on Google and I landed here completely by accident and it took me a while to figure out about registration. BTW, what's the time/date insertion command? --jaknouse
- While logged in, three tildes ("~") put your user name, four that plus the time & date. -- Infrogmation 06:35 Mar 21, 2003 (UTC)
- Well, you're absolutely right about how people enter; it was the same with me. I was searching for something and it came up on Google and I landed here completely by accident and it took me a while to figure out about registration. BTW, what's the time/date insertion command? --jaknouse
Now that war has broken out, perhaps we should put it in current events. - Montréalais
It's already there. Susan Mason
I'm not sure that "broken out" is quite the right terminology. "Been created" might work. --jaknouse
What's the difference between the label "in the news" and "ongoing events" ? Is not "ongoing events" to be rather "background articles" ? If so, why is US invasion of Iraq under this label. It does look to me like a daily news report.
- Well up to a day ago US invasion of Iraq was an ongoing event. Now it is a current one. I hope you like the changes I just made. --mav 01:34 Mar 22, 2003 (UTC)
Please add Arab League to in the news. Dietary Fiber
Could we have something on this black hole that's being investigated (according to AOL news) and the Eddington limit? -- Tarquin 16:25 Mar 25, 2003 (UTC)
Happy Birthday (March 25) Lark Voorhies!!
Antonio Iiitts all right!! Cause Im Saved By The Bell!! Martin
We need to add Turkish Airlines to current events on the Main page. I would go to Main page/temp and do it but Im afraid Id ruin that page.
Antonio Ill fly on the plane's tail Martin
- Done. --mav
whoever updates this page should take the time to scan the news everyday...
Carlo Urbani died Dietary Fiber
- There isn't any one person responsible for updating the page, but in any case we only list things that we have non-stub articles on. See Wikipedia:Selected Articles on the Main Page --Camembert
You should change that policy, by listing a stub article on this page you will induce yourself to make the article better. Also fix the War on Iraq link and add Peter Arnett to In the news:' (or rather Out of the news:) Dietary Fiber
I mean really, it would be appropriate to list the death of a Nobel Prize recepient who died trying to save you from the mystery disease without a cure which is spreading throughout the world. Dietary Fiber
- Arnett and Urbani added. -- Infrogmation 19:27 Mar 31, 2003 (UTC)
Cubana de Aviacion needs to be in current events/in the news at Mian Page
Thanks and God bless
- ? How is that a current event? I don't see any current info in that article. --mav
- I would guess that they're the operator of the airplane that's been/being hijacked from Cuba to the US (the reverse of how it always was in the 1970s, oddly enough). -- John Owens
- Hm. To be listed on the Main Page though any current event has to be important enough to the subject to warrent updating the article. I don't think this event passes muster in that regard. --mav
- Well it looks like Antonio updated the article. I guess if we included Turkish Airlines we might as well add this one as well. But these events really are not important enough to update the airliner's articles. Heck, each of these airlines have had much more significant things happen to them. Everyone needs to remember thatWikipedia is not a news report. --mav
The "Chemical Ali" link on the main page is not appropriate. We would write GW or The Butcher Sharon, nor should we use "Chemical Ali" which refers to an event which, if Im not mistaken, Iraq says it wasn't responsible for. Dietary Fiber
- And the same government now says that 3/4 of US troops in Baghdad have been "slaughtered" and that Iraqi forces are victorious even though a great deal of evidence suggests otherwise. And "Chemical Ali" has been taped as saying "I will kill them all with chemical weapons! Who is going to say anything? The international community?". But the displayed name is still perhaps sub-optimal for other reasons concerning professional presentation so I'll change it to something else. --mav
Should we put Jessica Lynch on the current events?
- Private Jessica Lynch should *definitely* be indexed on the front page under "War on Iraq." It is the biggest buzz on the Internet. -- NetEsq 03:56 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)
- done. --mav
- Who was that masked mav? -- NetEsq 05:08 Apr 8, 2003 (UTC)
May I ask why is "Statistics" listed under "Philosophy, Mathematics, Natural Science"? It's already in the Mathematics article, under "Applied Mathematics".. (AFAIK Statistics is not a "natural science" for itself but a branch of mathematics dealing with probablilty and prediction..) -- 213.8.131.63
Theoretical physics is arguably "just" applied mathematics, but I don't think anybody would argue it doesn't deserve its own listing - Khendon
The Statistics article states clearly that "Statistics is a branch of applied mathematics that includes ..." I can easily categorize for the title "Philosophy, Mathematics, Natural Science":
Philosophy: Philosophy
Mathematics: Mathematics
Natural Science: Astronomy and astrophysics, Biology, Chemistry, Earth science, Physics
Where does "Statistics" fit into any these categories? If you would have said under "Mathematics" I would say that Calculus, Algebra, Geometry etc. should also be listed.. -- 213.8.130.41
You should link the page http://fi.wikipedia.com/ as Finnish to this main page!
- Calm down, and look under "Suomi". -- John Owens
Short pages says, "Here's a saved copy from 04:23 Apr 10, 2003:" but then there's no link to the saved copy. -- Zoe
- You mean Special:Shortpages, right? The page you link doesn't exist. -- John Owens 04:55 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)
I haven't yet run initial saved copies of Special:Shortpages, Special:Longpages, or Special:Popularpages, as they're slow. That's why they're disabled in the first place. ;) I'll see about it now, hopefully they won't bog down too bad. --Brion 05:16 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)
- Well, that was fun. --Brion 05:31 Apr 10, 2003 (UTC)
Can you add Madrid metro expansion to the news items? - Montréalais
- Done. --mav
Can you add Tikrit to the news items?
- Not until it satisfies the guidelines for listing. --mav
OK folks, I'm going on vacation to Death Valley for the next week or so. Therefore somebody else is going to have to maintain the Historical anniversaries section on the Main Page. The guidelines for doing so are linked at the top of this page. Have fun! --mav 08:04 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)
Please add "border-color: black" to the style properties for the line (1px table border) that runs down the middle of the lower part of the main page. I've already done this on the Current events page (look there to see what I mean).
Currently mozilla renders this line black, while IE usues light grey (which is very hard to see). -- stewacide
- OK, I've put that border-color in now, but I don't do IE, so take a look and tell me how it is now. -- John Owens 04:18 Apr 14, 2003 (UTC)
- Yup, it worked! Much better now. -- stewacide
Sorry, the "we've won" link to that Washington Times article had to go. It's in no way NPOV. --Robert Merkel 13:53 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
- Thanks, Robert. I should have just added the usual entries to Current events -- which I eventually did. Good catch. --Uncle Ed 17:28 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
Does anyone else have an issue with the word-wrapping of the "Hyphenated Lists"? My browser (IE) will just willy-nilly insert a newline before or after the hyphen. However, having a line start with a hyphen looks bad to me.
For example, the "About the Project" section has 3 of 4 lines on my screen showing up starting with hyphens:
About page - Announcements - FAQ
- Village pump - Wikipedians - Chat
- Mailing lists - Utilities - Software -
DB download - Friends of Wikipedia
- Press coverage
Of course that changes depending on the size of my window, but there are always several lines starting with the hyphens.
I suggest adding a non-breaking space ( ) after the Wiki's and before the hypen. What does everyone else think? -- Jketola 19:55 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
- While I wouldn't say I have an issue with it, my browser (Galeon/Mozilla) has the same behaviour (though I see it in the "Other Languages" and "Sister Projects" sections instead), and I do agree it would be better otherwise, presumably with the you mention. -- John Owens 21:18 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
- Sounds like a good suggestion to me. -- Infrogmation 21:26 Apr 15, 2003 (UTC)
Can someone add a zh: link on the top, please? Thanks --Kaihsu 13:54 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
- I'd be happy to, but I'm not sure of the proper form for linking to http://zh.wikipedia.org/ . If you post the proper characters here, I'll copy and paste them on the main page. -- Infrogmation 19:17 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
- Done. --Brion 02:01 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)
Could we get a link to By alphabetical order now that there is an archived list (rather than one which taxes the server)? - Brettz9 00:54 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)
- Done. --Brion 02:01 Apr 19, 2003 (UTC)
- Great, Thanks! Now, could I repeat my earlier request to make the List of reference lists link to also or instead include something like Almanac data. I think Almanac is a more familiar term, and it would not confuse people who might think that the reference data is confined to such things as Wikipedia usage reference. In fact, given the growing size and number of these lists, I would think that their usefulness (and distinctiveness from an encyclopedia) might merit having their own domain name (as with http://wiktionary.org ), assuming resources were available. If that were possible, such data as timelines and calendars and even current events could be moved or cross-referenced there as well. Of course, it would be logical, I think, if it were possible, to be listed as a sister project. - Brettz9 20:58 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)
Also, I'm not sure what people think of this concept, but Relational_Topics might be an interesting categorization to include if it develops further... - Brettz9 20:58 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)
Lastly, could I make a recommendation to make "Sister Projects" larger or more prominent somehow? To me, that it is a very important aspect to promote the awareness that the content possibilities are not limited to the type of content at Wikipedia (such as for dictionary data at Wiktionary.org). - Brettz9 20:58 Apr 20, 2003 (UTC)